Vampire Survivors: Ode To Castlevania interview – ‘I put myself before everything’-David Jenkins-Entertainment – Metro

Vampire Survivors: Ode To Castlevania – the circle is complete (poncle)

GameCentral talks to the creator of indie smash hit Vampire Survivors, as he explains why making games needs to be as fun as playing them.

The nominees for Game of the Year at the 2023 BAFTA Game Awards included Elden Ring, God Of War Ragnarök, Marvel Snap and, for some reason, Stray and Cult Of The Lamb. Most would’ve picked FromSoftware’s epic open world adventure but instead the award went to Vampire Survivors – a dual-stick shooter without the dual sticks that looks like it was stitched together with Castlevania clip art.

When I first heard about the game I was very dubious, and almost feared people were playing it ironically. But despite its simplicity, Vampire Survivors is a very good game and a deceptively well designed one. It’s also impossible to put down once you start playing, as hours seem to flit by like seconds.

It’s sold millions of copies on PC, consoles, and mobile and is the fourth best reviewed game on the whole of Steam. It also costs less than a fiver, was initially made by just one person, and has an extensive new Castlevania expansion pack out this week.

We recently met up with creator Luca Galante, to talk about the game’s success and what comes next, and we were very impressed by his attitude towards game design and his unwillingness to do anything with the game if he didn’t personally find it interesting. Arriving in London from Italy, to seek his fortune in the games industry, his is the quintessential indie success story and, so far at least, it hasn’t gone to his head.

As for the Castlevania DLC it’s out now for the princely some of £2.99. For which you get over 20 classic Castlevania characters, more than 40 weapons (including lots of whips, naturally), and over 30 new music tracks.

Galante’s company poncle has already teamed up with Konam for a Contra expansion (which is similarly cheap) but given how much it inspired the look and feel of the original game, Castlevania has a very special connection to Vampire Survivors.

The fact that it’s gone from unofficial inspiration to official crossover says everything about the game’s level of success and after meeting Galante we can’t wait to see what he does next, whether it’s Vampire Survivors related or not.

GC: So, when did you realise you were a better game developer than FromSoftware?

LG: [laughs] That was a shocking moment, for sure. I still can’t believe it. I shouted something in Italian, something I wouldn’t want to repeat, when it happened. [laughs] Sometimes I feel like I’m just able to grasp the concept that I won, and then it just fades away. Nobody’s better than anyone! [laughs]

GC: How long had the game been successful for before that? Because I hadn’t heard about it at all when it was still in early access.

LG: I think it was less than one year. The game got published in early access in December [2021] and then October of the next year we released version 1.0.

GC: I’ve read some of your previous interviews but I’m unclear… where you unemployed when the game became a hit or were you working at McDonald’s? There seems to be two versions of the story.

LG: Oh no, I was working at McDonald’s 13… 14 years ago now, when I first moved to London. So that was a long time ago. That’s where my whole London adventure started, really. When I was making Vampire Survivors I started when I was unemployed; when it got published in early access I was working for a gaming company.

GC: Oh, what was that?

LG: That was Marmalade Game Studio; that is a company that just makes mostly digital versions of tabletop games, Monopoly for example.

GC: So, what was your plan when you came to the UK? You wanted to get a job at a games company?

LG: Yeah, yeah. That was the idea. Because in Italy, the gaming industry is not great. Even finding a job as a programmer was difficult in Italy. So, I came to London specifically to find a job as a programmer in general, honestly. I wasn’t aiming at game developer necessarily.

GC: Why the UK in particular? And what was your best case scenario for what might happen?

LG: You know, at that stage, any job in the gaming industry would’ve been okay. I didn’t have big plans or big dreams, really. I just wanted to get started. I picked London because I came to London without planning really, because I was just really tired of being home in Italy, in a situation where I couldn’t move. I went to the Eurogamer Expo, forever ago, and that’s when I had my first contact with the industry. That didn’t really go anywhere but I liked London enough to decide to try to move.

Vampire Survivors has never been a looker (poncle)

GC: I remember when I first heard about the game, when I assumed it was some mindless drivel like Cookie Clicker, and I began to despair that it had been such a big hit. Then I played it and almost got more upset because I really liked it.

LG: [laughs]

GC: How do you design a game like that? I was just sitting here playing the Castlevania DLC and you constantly end up thinking it’s broken, as you do the same thing again and again, and then at exactly the moment you think of giving up something new happens. How do you know that I’ll get to that point at exactly that moment?

LG: [laughs] I know that because I played the game so long, for so many hours, where I changed every little variable to create that effect. The game is very simple to make, that’s why there are so many clones out there. The mechanics are very simple to put in place. I even… when I released the first version, what I spent most of my time doing is just game design; starting a stage from scratch, reaching a point where something doesn’t work as it should, changing it, and starting over.

It’s something I’d never done before, honestly. Because every time I was making games before I made those games for other companies. There was always a script to follow, I wasn’t allowed to do my own thing. When I was making games in my spare time, I was never trying to do anything original. I was always trying to sort of catch up with the latest trends, on mobile or on the Web, to try and make a little bit of money. But that doesn’t really get you anywhere.

GC: Good! I’m glad only original ideas work.

LG: [laughs] When I started to work on Vampire Survivors I started to program in a completely different way. I wasn’t worried about shipping something, about making a game, I just wanted to have fun. That’s why I went for the programming languages I knew the best, that just come naturally to me to work with. But for me, it became a fun process.

I was just making the game for myself, basically, and I wanted it to be a blank canvas, a container, which I could just throw in ideas for weird weapons, abilities, and characters. For me that’s the fun bit, making the content. And that’s why I still keep adding content to the game, because for me it’s fun.

The moment I start thinking that there are millions of people that play the game now, and see it as a product that I have to push and advertise, that would suck all the fun out of it. That wouldn’t be the same anymore. Because I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to suddenly start thinking about the game in a different way. It will always be my little toy to play with and have fun. [laughs]

GC: I’m sure the game’s simplicity and accessibility were a large part of the appeal, but did you ever consider making it an actual twin-stick shooter, with manual controls? Who were you aiming it at? I guess no one, if it was just a hobby to you.

LG: Absolutely, I wasn’t aiming for anything. [laughs] I was hoping I would have about 200 people in a community, to have fun, and exchange ideas.

GC: You’d have to be fairly hardcore to be in a gaming community though, so wouldn’t you have thought they’d want manual controls?

LG: Yeah, we have a lot of people that still, today, ask for it.

GC: You get what you’re given, I like that.

LG: [laughs] But I cannot do that because it would go against the principle in the game. Even just the option to add a second stick, the game becomes like any other. Suddenly a lot of weapons lose their meaning… the game would be designed in a completely different way. There is no need to change the core gameplay mechanics, the core gameplay mechanics will always be there.

I will keep experimenting with new stuff but never to the point of changing the control scheme. I think the game being very accessible has definitely played a role into how successful it has become. It was the amount of emails that I got… we got a lot of commenting on socials, but the really weird thing is the emails. Because for someone to sit down and type an email, I think it takes a lot more effort.

So to receive an email from someone just to say thank you, because this is the game that they managed to play together with their grandmother, for example, that was crazy and beautiful at the same time. It is because of all that feedback that I decided to add couch co-op to the game.

Even if I know that couch co-op is something that is really difficult to add to the game and something that doesn’t give you that much back in turns of revenue. It’s very expensive to make but it doesn’t make the game sell that much more. But I don’t care. I’m in a position where I can afford not to care if something’s affordable or not. Because players have been so generous and I have to give something back.

Vampire Survivors: Ode To Castlevania – not asset packs here (poncle)

GC: I’m curious about the Castlevania connection. Originally, I assumed you’d just cracked one of the games and stolen all the sprites. But I understand they were all from some kind of random asset pack you happened to have? If that pack was themed around robots, or whatever, would this have been Robot Survivors? Did you actually like Castlevania back then?

LG: [laughs] It would’ve made a big difference, actually, because I’m a huge Castlevania fan and that’s why I bought the asset pack inspired by Castlevania. And I’ve been using that asset pack to make almost all of my game prototypes over the years. I’ve been using that asset pack a lot. [laughs]

When it came to Vampire Survivors I had just made a very quick prototype of the game and it was very simple, it was just a background image and everything was just black and white dots, and it was fun to play even when it was that basic. And usually that’s where I reach the point where the game is fun enough, so I feel satisfied and put the prototype aside and never finish the game.

For Vampire Survivors, just out of curiosity, I removed the black and white sprites and just chucked in the sprites from the asset pack, that looked like Castlevania. And that’s what made me fall in love with the visuals. Seeing all these enemies that strongly reminded me of Castlevania, moving in this weird way with the pixels getting distorted here and there, I just really liked it a lot.

And so I just started to listen to a Castlevania playlist while working on it and I took inspiration from Castlevania weapons as well, to just reinterpret them and put them into the game. So, without Castlevania, Vampire Survivors would’ve been a very different game or maybe I would have never kept working on it. So this is absolutely a full circle moment and unbelievable!

It hurts when people say that the sprites were stolen from Castlevania, because that was the point of the asset pack, to make something that is not the same but really reminds you of it. And, also, it was a crazy amount of work to… I was still on my own, basically, when I first launched the game and I knew some sprites were a little bit too close to Castlevania. I wasn’t happy with them, but it was a lot of work to go back, redraw them myself.

That wasn’t even supposed to happen, that’s the whole point of buying an asset pack, right? You want the assets ready to use. I’m not an artist! That’s why the game looks like it looks! [laughs]

GC: Well, it looks like Konami forgive you.

LG: [laughs] I was really happy that they understood the situation. We clicked immediately with Konami and I was so happy when they wanted to work together.

GC: So where does it go from here, in terms of the game and yourself? You’re implying you’re going to add to it indefinitely with DLC and crossovers… you seemed to be talking to whatshisface at Larian Studios the other day?

LG: Oh yeah, we’re in touch with Larian because we were friends and we had a lot of friends of friends. But there’s nothing scheduled, nothing in progress for that. I would love to do something along those lines, but I feel like I’m reaching a point where there is almost too many DLCs for Vampire Survivors.

GC: I see. Because you could become the next Fortnite, in terms of the endless cameos.

LG: That’s the weird thing, right? That Vampire Survivors was made as this blank canvas, so I could probably keep working on it forever. And I’m sure the fans would be happy to keep getting more and more DLC.

The thing is, I’ve been so conditioned by the industry, by other games, to assume that games that have a lot of downloadable content are somehow trying to take advantage of their players. It feels like a bit of predatory monetisation and that’s why I feel there’s a bit of a disconnect between the creative side and the business side…

GC: That’s where all these big publishers make their money, and you realise the microtransactions is all they really care about.

LG: Exactly!

GC: You seem too nice a guy to be a businessman. Just say yes to everything, you can put the Teletubbies in next.

LG: [laughs] That’s one step too far for me! I’m only saying yes to the stuff I really like, personally. With the amount of work… I’m in a position now where I cannot work on stuff I don’t like anymore.

I will never go back to programming something I don’t believe in. So to work a big IP just because it’s a big IP, doesn’t make any sense for me. I need to like what I’m working on to be able to be good enough to advertise it, to tell the players I’m proud of this.

GC: If you were a normal publisher your next step would be to get some sort of investment funding and then start making a big 3D, manually controlled Vampire Survivors 2, with a three-year roadmap of DLC.

LG: Oh, absolutely. We had all sorts of proposals. [laughs] But they were turned down very quickly. But that is absolutely not how I see this working. For me, just to think in terms of maximising profits makes no sense at all. Poncle is a company that’s in a very privileged position. We don’t have investors, we’re not a public company, we don’t have anyone we have to do quarterly reports about earnings… none of that.

Vampire Survivors: Ode To Castlevania – ouch (poncle)

GC: Do you have any idea what you will do next? Because whatever it is, presumably it’d be higher budget.

LG: It would have a higher budget but it wouldn’t be dramatically different in terms of scope, than Vampire Survivors.

GC: Will you use the same asset pack?

LG: I won’t use the same asset pack! [laughs] That’s enough for now. But I will definitely be spending a lot more in terms of production. But in terms of scope, I don’t want to suddenly start making games that are bigger. I want to stay on the same level.

I won’t suddenly start adding complex narratives to the game, hiring actors to do motion capture or voice-acting. All those things are on a completely different scope and something I’m not comfortable with.

So it would be crazy for me to try and do something bigger just because it’s what everyone is expecting. That’s not going to work well. I want to keep working at the level I’m comfortable with. Maybe just one little step ahead, but just a little one.

GC: But you’ve got a Netflix show, I think was announced?

LG: Oh yes, we’ve been working with Story Kitchen [a media company that specialises in video game adaptations, including Sonic The Hedgehog and Tomb Raider] on an adaption of Vampire Survivors. The details are still a bit in the air, whether it’s animation or live action, but we are working towards something.

In Vampire Survivors, there isn’t a strong and coherent narrative. For me that’s a very strong point, actually. Because whoever is writing the TV series, the movie, whatever… it gives them creative freedom to tell whatever story they want. And, again, it lets them have fun. Fun doing what they do best. And, honestly, that’s the way creative people should work, from my point of view, to be able to do just whatever they want. I’m looking very forward to it!

GC: You can find out what the story is to your own game!

Both: [laughs]

GC: So, just to finish, the other thing you’ve done, as I understand, is set up a publishing business. How are you picking the projects for that?

LG: We haven’t set up anything!

GC: Oh.

LG: We haven’t made an announcement for anything. It’s just some information that leaked, basically, and some people thought it was much more than what it actually is. When we’ll be ready to announce something concrete we will, but right now it’s ridiculous for us to say we’re a publishing business. We are a publisher, but we just publish Vampire Survivors, right? We’re not ready to handle anything else yet.

We want to, absolutely, but how it’s going to work, and when it’s going to become a real thing, I don’t know. I tend to do everything in a very organic way and take things one little step at a time. I’m not a businessman, I’m not a video game publisher, I’m very much a game developer. So for me, it’s very important to not do things too quickly. It is a dream for me to be able to publish games, to help people get their games out there.

It’s very difficult for me to find games I like. So if I can have someone make a game that they like, it’s a win-win for everyone. I get games I like, and they get to have it published. [laughs] But it’ll be a bit of a wait, I dunno.

GC: Do you feel you have advice and knowledge you feel you can pass on to other developers?

LG: I don’t know. I think a big factor of success, especially for Vampire Survivors, is luck. And you cannot plan for luck. The only one piece of advice I would have for people, is do not take failures too personally. Keep trying, basically. Very obvious stuff that you can find in any self-help book.

And then to try and be ready in case you’re successful. Because that’s the thing, right? Vampire Survivors got very successful, very quickly, and it could’ve died the day after it got successful. It didn’t die because somehow I was able to start a company and somehow take the right steps.

And that’s only because I always dreamt of having a company. I never assumed it would become reality but somehow I was ready to manage that situation. So the only piece of advice I can give is wait for your time to get lucky and make sure you’re ready.

GC: I thought your best advice was it has to be something you enjoy; you have to be having fun.

LG: Uh-huh. A lot of people, I think they’re obsessed about what their players will think. It isn’t bad to think what players will think, but maybe it’s not the first thing to think about? Maybe that’s how we end up doing something that’s very generic, if you try to make everyone happy.

GC: I have to say, I’ve never really liked the idea of early access. I’d rather the developer just have their own vision and put out the game they want. I don’t really like the idea of a committee of fans, who know nothing about making games, giving out their demands. I mean, I guess it works, but on paper it seems like it shouldn’t.

LG: I absolutely agree, And I don’t think it works and that’s why I didn’t do it! I did an early access and I did listen to the players, but I still kept the core mechanics of the game in place. A lot of people were asking for the second stick, to aim…

GC: So you had red lines that you weren’t going to change?

LG: Exactly. Because I put myself before everything. The game has to be fun for me. Then I’m very happy to think about player feedback. Player feedback was very important, because even in our joke about having a roadmap… I knew which features I wanted to have in the game, but I don’t know the order. And the order of the features depends a lot on what the community wants.

So, I definitely did let the community influence me, but not on everything. Because I have my job as a game developer and I’m a bit selfish when it comes to something I want to do for myself. And then, also, it’s important for the players to understand that their requests can lead to a bit of back and forth.

GC: Well, that’s very interesting. It’s been great to meet you.

LG: Thank you, thank you very much.

Vampire Survivors: Ode To Castlevania – if nothing else, it’s cheap (poncle)

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